Doug: So it comes down to this: two events from the Amazing Spider-Man versus two events involving our Merry Mutants, the Uncanny X-Men. Has this gone the way you would have predicted? I think this is going to be very interesting, and perhaps the key thing on your mind is how you'll interpret our question: Which event was most significant in the Bronze Age? More than one commenter has remarked that if the question were to read "to" rather than "in", votes might have gone differently in several cases (and no, I'm not interested in doing this again :) ). But as they say, it is what it is, so we are sticking to the original, ongoing question. As always, comments about your vote or the voting trends are welcome!
Doug: Over the past month we've run posts soliciting your opinions on favorite done-in-one stories, as well as wonderful multi-parters. Friend William suggested we do a post with today's question, and since it sounded like a great idea for a weekend full of conversation -- here you are! Hopefully we generate as many nominees and banter as the previous two posts did. Have fun!
Doug: We hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving holiday.
Doug: It was nice to see some close races in the latest round of 16. The choices get even tougher as we head to the quarterfinals, although I think as we look ahead it's somewhat obvious where this is going. Now that we're down to only four contests, it would be nice to see some specific comments concerning the merits or detriments of these events. Hopefully we'll get some really good conversation going over the next few days. And thanks to all who've chimed in over the past two weeks -- this has been interesting and a lot of fun!
Karen: The series ended a few months back. What are your thoughts on it as a whole? For me, it was always a maddening show, in the sense that it was so very uneven in quality. It seemed like every time I was ready to give up on it (particularly after a string of bad episodes), then they'd pull off a really cool scene or set something up so I'd come back for more. All in all, while I enjoyed it on some levels, I can't rank it up there with other series that I consider to be truly great. What do you all think?
Doug: Back on the 1st of the month, the tome The Silver Age of Comic Book Art came up in our comments on Avengers #93; and then darned if frequent commenter Richard didn't bring it up again yesterday! What are your favorite reference books?
Doug: Now we're getting down to business. I thought it was nice in the latter half of the second round to see three races finish very tightly -- there is anticipation building for some of the match-ups yet to come. I have a couple of questions to pose today. I've attached updated brackets below, and unless you have the crazy things memorized by now, you'll need to consult them in order to answer.
Doug: Here's the first -- as with any tournament, and particularly this one which was set up on somewhat of a blind draw, there can be teams lose "unjustly". By that I mean, and am asking you now -- has there been any event that you feel should have moved on? Is there something important that got left behind solely because it had the misfortune of going against a juggernaut early? A few of our British commenters cited the merits of 2000 AD, for example.
Doug: And here's the second question -- now that we're in the so-called "Sweet Sixteen", is it an appropriate dance card? That is, if you had to name the top 10 or 12 events of the Bronze Age off the top of your head, are they all here?
Doug: And what the heck -- how about one more query? Does anyone want to make any predictions? There are some great match-ups, so let's hear your prognostications!
Fantastic Four #12 (March 1963) "The Incredible Hulk" Stan Lee-Jack Kirby/Dick Ayers
Doug: Karen and I have had so much fun in the past during our "Finding Silver in Bronze" features, that we just decided to go ahead and look at a few Silver Age books outright. So with apologies to our blogging friends at Silver Age Comics, Marvel Genesis, etc. we're going to try a little 3-parter spotlighting the earliest Thing/Hulk tussles -- what could have been better at the dawning of the Marvel Age than a heated discussion at the soda fountain as to which Marvel monster was the strongest? So be on the look-out for giant robots, Commie spies, and certainly a heaping dose of gender insensitivity from Stan Lee's pen!
Karen: Ah yes -the good old days.
Doug: Wha... wait -- was that sarcasm? Just a temporal note to our readers -- this issue of the FF hit the spinner racks (now there's a trivia question -- when was the spinner rack invented?) the same month the Incredible Hulk was canceled; his own sixth issue was for sale. Doug: We open with a not-too-disguised Ben Grimm and his gal Alicia Masters exiting the New York Symphony. Suddenly there's a commotion (because in the Silver Age, you never got past a splash page without the need for some fisticuffs!), as a bunch of army men show up. Seems they are in downtown New York because of a nationwide alert. Hmmm -- anyone think that's odd, given that the Hulk-sightings were almost exclusively in the American southwest? Anyway, just as the boys in green are arriving, Ben gets into a little ruckus with another symphony patron. You guessed it -- his disguise comes off, he loses his temper and picks the old boy up, and the GI's go nuts. Ben tears off a fire hydrant, and then in what I really thought was an ingenious move, jumps up and belly-flops on top of the geyser, effectively spraying away the soldiers closest to him. But the army counters with a bazooka shell that sends out solid steel tendrils that hogtie Ben -- for about three seconds. They next attempt to slow him down with gas, but at about that time an officer arrives and tells his men to fall back -- the Thing has been recognized.
Karen: The Thing was still a bit dangerous in these days, even up til about the time Kirby left, in that he could at the very least be unpredictable. He would go on these mini-rampages, destroying property and generally making an ass of himself. But still, they were nothing compared to old Greenskin's escapades.
Doug: I think that's why Ben's such a great character -- Stan, or more accurately Jack, really put him through the wringer psychologically early on. Once back on his feet, Ben huffs away with Alicia. I presume that he drops her off somewhere, because we immediately see him at the Baxter Building, fidgeting for his special elevator key. Shoot -- can't find it. So in typical Ben Grimm fashion, he just rips the doors open and proceeds to shinny up the cables. It's no wonder these guys were always having landlord and/or financial problems! Arriving on the 35th floor, he's greeted by the rest of the team -- and in charming Silver Age fashion, Johnny's standing there in full flame-on mode! Impractical as heck, but ya gotta love it. Reed tells Ben that they are expecting a visit from a General "Thunderbolt" Ross -- and very shortly the old warhorse arrives. He gets right to it -- he wants to enlist the FF to take down the Hulk!
Karen: Boy, would we see this idea played out, with the FF and the Avengers, over and over...even as recently as World War Hulk we got essentially the same scenario!
Doug: This is really a seminal moment in the Marvel Universe -- correct me if I'm wrong, but this ties for the first crossover in the budding MU (Amazing Spider-Man #1 is also cover-dated March '63). It also shows that the Hulk was quite a mysterious character -- in fact, the FF is not even sure he exists. When a large image of him comes up on the screen, Sue "lost control of her invisibility powers" and does a fade out! I guess wetting her pants would have been too embarrassing? Once she recovers, each of the men fantasize about how they'll take out this Hulk character, all by themselves. Sue expresses that she'll be of no use -- Ross and Reed say she'll be good for morale! What a hoot.
Karen: And that, sir, is exactly why I grew up more or less disdaining female super-heroes. Sure, it got better over time but that attitude was common in early Marvel books -even up to the early '70s.
Doug: This issue also featured the 1st appearance of the Fantasticar we all know and love. Reed tells Ross that it was designed and built by Johnny. That's pretty advanced for a 16-year old, don't you think? Hopping in, the team travels with Ross out to the desert (why would the General ride in this crate?), where they can set about this Hulk business. Once on base, the team is introduced to Dr. Bruce Banner, a Dr. Karl Kort, and Rick Jones. Banner reveals that he believes the troubles of military technology destruction are the work of "the Wrecker" and not the Hulk; Ross is hearing none of it. Kort excuses himself, but runs into the Thing, the Torch, and Sue waiting just outside. He's startled by Ben, and in his haste to leave drops his wallet. Johnny inexplicably picks it up with a "flame lasso" (??). Ben's had enough waiting, and wrecks his second door of this issue. Ross is mad, and Ben responds to him by taking bound volumes of every phone book in the USA and ripping them in two.
Karen: I can see that Johnny might have designed the look of the Fantasticar, because only a 16-year old could come up with something that bizarre and non-aerodynamic. One thing I love about these old books: how people suddenly just burst into exposition for the sake of the reader! We've got Ben explaining how the four sections come apart, Sue demonstrating the windshield...it goes against everything you hear about how to write, but these little asides always made me feel like I was a real Marvel insider! Ben has another mini-rampage here. I love Reed telling General Ross he has to watch what he says to the Thing!
Doug: After everyone splits up, Banner and Rick head into some underground tunnels. There Banner muses over his mock-up of Project 34, which was destroyed by the Wrecker. Project 34 was essentially a system that would do what Ronald Reagan's fictional SDI ("Star Wars") system would do. Rick leaves Banner and decides to check out Kort's wallet, which had been given him by the Torch. Since this is a Cold War-era tale, you just know Kort's a Red. And you'd be right. He pulls a gun on Rick, and we got ourselves a hostage situation. At about the same time, Ben is test-driving a Rocket Sled, which of course is sabotaged. Banner tells the FF that Rick's been kidnapped, and this is heading south in a hurry. Banner is distraught by a nasty note he's received about Rick, and feels that becoming the Hulk is his only option. Putting himself in front of a gamma ray machine, the transformation takes place. Now the Hulk is on the move beneath the desert.
Karen: Don't you love how Kort is an actual card-carrying commie? That's not too bright of him. The rocket sled was a fun bit, once again stressing how tough the Thing is. And how about those panels of Banner becoming the Hulk? He actually put on purple trunks! I really like this depiction of the Hulk, by the way. He was really monstrous here, with his heavy brow and strange three-toed feet.
Doug: I don't know that I ever noticed the three-toed look, but even on the cover -- there it is! Not only is the Hulk on the move, but the FF are as well. Of course they encounter each other, and all of the bravado each of the male members of the FF has spouted off about doesn't come anywhere to close to reality. The Hulk sucker-punches Ben, douses Johnny's flame with sand and dirt, and flicks Reed away. Reaching the surface, Hulk topples a building on the FF -- in the days before Sue's forcefield. Leaping away, Hulk makes a bid to escape the conflict so that he can find Rick. But the FF move on him again, this time with a bit more success. Johnny, however, gets doused again by a thunder clap; Ben gets a solid punch in, but before anything can be settled a ray shoots out of the ground and fells the Green Goliath.
Karen: I like how the Thing and Hulk seemed to be much closer in strength back then, even if the Hulk was still described as being larger. When the Hulk strikes the Thing he exclaims, "It's like hitting a brick wall!" It's hard to remember, now that everyone's powers have all been juiced up to such impossible levels, that these characters were not so godlike when they first started out.
Doug: Ben smashes into the ground to find the source of the beam, and instead finds a giant robot. The FF quickly deduce that this must be the Wrecker; Ben makes very short work of it. Moving into a nearby chamber, Ben is greeted by Kort and a very large gun. But our lovely Sue had decided to turn herself invisible and trail her teammate -- and it's our "morale booster" who ends up saving the day. Kort's arrested, the Hulk gets away and reverts to Banner, Banner and Rick Jones are reunited, and after all of that -- the FF get to review a military parade!
Karen: How about that? Sue actually did something!
Doug: This was a fun issue, and I'll bet that 8-year olds around the world were chomping at the bit to see Marvel's two monster-heroes duke it out. But as we all know, these early superhero brouhahas were very non-committal; Thor's bout with the Hulk (Journey Into Mystery, January 1965) really wasn't even a fight. Maybe the bigger influence of this story was not the fight that did/did not happen, but the very idea of the crossover between major characters. We mentioned the Spidey/FF crossover earlier; in just five short issues Ant-Man would team with the FF. Over in the X-Men, they met the Avengers in their 10th issue. This unifying of the early Marvel Universe would eventually lead to such Bronze Age staples as Marvel Team-Up and Marvel Two-In-One -- and aren't we all better for those?
Karen: Most definitely!
Doug: Tune in next time, when we actually will see our two gargoyles throw down -- yep, it's in Fantastic Four #'s 25-26!
Doug: I think we've seen a little anxiety as we've gone on with some of the match-ups. There was quite a bit of love for Linda Carter's Wonder Woman earlier in the week; alas, she was no match for the birth of the graphic novel. However, isn't it interesting that the graphic novel faced one of the closer contests of the 1st round, somewhat narrowly moving on past Luke Cage. But if you're going to feel bad, shed some tears for Superman: The Movie. It moved past the treasury editions in the closest win of the 1st round, but just got hammered by Giant-Size X-Men #1 over the past few days.
Doug: Looking ahead to the latter half of this round, some things that jump out at me are the all-DC match of Jeanette Kahn's takeover of the company paired with the DC Implosion. What are you going to do with that? A phoenix-like rise vs. a bottoming-out. And at the bottom, the relaxation of the CCA vs. the Englehart/Rogers Batman. Food for thought on that one, particularly if you buy Englehart's claim that he basically "wrote" the 1989 Batman film. But isn't that the fun of this whole exercise? Everyone brings a different perspective to the voting.
Doug: So below is the updated bracket, so you can see what lies ahead. You might also note that I've gone back and added the raw votes to each match-up. I think that's interesting as we watch all of this play out.
Karen has joined the ranks of podcasters along with her friends Larry and Bob on the Planet 8 podcast. Click on the image to hear them explore all things geek!
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Karen and Doug
Bronze Age Babies, Unite!
On Sunday, 4/23/17, Martinex1, Doug, and Redartz gathered for a day of fun at C2E2 in Chicago. It was great to finally meet in person after years of online cameraderie.
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Karen and Doug met on the Avengers Assemble! message board back in September 2006. On June 16 2009 they went live with the Bronze Age Babies blog, sharing their love for 1970s and '80s pop culture with readers who happen by each day. You'll find conversations on comics, TV, music, movies, toys, food... just about anything that evokes memories of our beloved pasts!
Doug is a high school social science teacher and department chairman living south of Chicago; he also does contract work for the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. He is married with two adult sons and a daughter-in-law.
Karen originally hails from California and now works in scientific research/writing in the Phoenix area. She often contributes articles to Back Issue magazine. She is married. She hangs out with Joe Biden occasionally.
Believe it or not, the Bronze Age Babies have never spoken to each other...
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Dig Karen's Work Here? Then You Should Check Her Out in Back Issue!
BI #44 is available for digital download and in print. I've read Karen's article on reader reaction to Gerry Conway's ASM #121-122, and it's excellent. This entire magazine was fun! -- Doug
Back Issue #45
As if Karen's work on Spidey in the Bronze Age wasn't awesome enough, she's at it again with a look at the romance of the Vision and the Scarlet Witch in Back Issue's "Odd Couples" issue -- from TwoMorrows!
Karen's talking the Mighty Thor in the Bronze Age!
Click the cover to order a print or digital copy of Back Issue! #53